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Good morning everybody. Welcome to the October Badger Dairy Insight webinar. Thank you for joining us. The Badger Dairy Insight webinar series, if you're unfamiliar, is a webinar series hosted by the University of Wisconsin Division of Extension Dairy Team. And it's a monthly series offered on the third Tuesday of each month. And we provide the latest research um on dairy based information regarding animal welfare, breeding, genetic selection, automation, modernization, and nutrition for


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producers, dairy workers, and managers. And my name is Caitlyn Goldmith. I'm a statewide dairy outreach specialist with WMadison extension and I am going to be the host and moderator for our session today. If you're not familiar, today's ex today's session is entitled AMS ask the experts your automatic milking system questions answered and we have three panelists who are going to be joining us today and they're going to be answering questions regarding automatic milking systems that have been submitted


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to us by farmers and producers. But you are also encouraged to submit your questions for the panel and you can do so using the Q&A function at the bottom of the screen. This webinar is also being recorded and you can find it on our dairy website in about one to two weeks and we will also feature it in our monthly dairy e newsletter. Originally we had four panelists for this discussion. Unfortunately Dr. Lizzie French with the USDA Forage Research Center is unable to join us due to the current government shutdown. So sad that


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she can't join us, but we do have three other great panelists that are going to be here today. And those are Doug Rehiman, Marcia Andress, and Nestle Aden. I'm sorry, Nestle Adinsen. They're going to be introducing themselves. So Nestle can get her name right. I'm very sorry. So to start off, what I want our panelists to do today is take a couple minutes, introduce themselves to our audience, and give a background on their work and their work kind of specific to the AMS world. And just to get it


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started, I'll assign Doug as our first one to talk. >> Well, hello everyone. Um I've been uh at the UW for 35 years and um running the UW milking research instruction lab uh over that period of time and I've sort of followed uh automatic milking from its very start and my um you know my interests my recent interests are really it really comes down to profitability. It's like how can robotic milking systems compete economically with uh you know the alternatives primarily being large


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rotary parlor. So that is my primary interest right at the moment. And then there's just all sorts of really fascinating questions. I'm an engineer by training. So, you know, uh, robots are data collection machines and so I've been having a lot of fun with enormous data sets coming out of robots and, you know, a asking some very uh, you know, questions that have been around for a long time and and finally have the data sets to be able to answer some of those questions. So, that's my robot thing.


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>> Thank you, Doug. Marcia, would you like to go next? I'm Marca Anderson with the University of Minnesota. I'm a professor here in the department of animal science and also a extensionary specialist. Uh we've done our first uh surveys with robots back in 2010 I think. So I've been involved uh doing some research with robotic systems for quite some time. Uh we've done surveys which kind of learning what the producers um you know how they work with robots, why they decide to implement robots and also


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using data like Doug just mentioned. I've done some research with my grad students looking at the data we can get from robots and how that is maybe associated with productivity for example. Um also investigating um factors that might influence production per cow production per robot in AMS systems. So we've seen a a change of course in in the last um 101 15 years and it's being a technology that um has grown and we felt it was important as a team here that we work on it and learn more about it.


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>> Thank you. And then Nestle. >> Hi good morning. I'm Nestle Actis. I'm an assistant professor and extension specialist in biological systems engineering QW medicine. So I do ventilation studies, ventilation design for traditional buildings, also ventilation design for AMS buildings. One of the tools I use is I develop some computational uh simulations. So if there are different options that we want to test before um testing them on the site before building them and spending our funds we


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are able to test them using our simulations and we are able to say yes this is a promising approach or this approach needs to be improved. So it is my study area and I'm very glad to be here today. >> Thank you. So, we have a great spread of panelists today and I wanted to kick off the conversation with kind of a general question that each of you could answer, which is when it comes to AMS, what is some of the most or the most common question you seem to get and how do you usually answer that?


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I can start out the most common question is what does it cost? And you know my response to that is uh I think uh a good way of expressing the cost is is in terms of cost of milk production. So uh we've got a number of farms now that have both AMS and conventional milking systems. So there's a number of farms that have been you know pretty careful economic analysis of one system versus the other. And if you look across those uh numbers uh you know the the AMS milking is is currently more expensive.


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It has a higher cost of production and that higher cost ranges between uh maybe if you're doing really well about 50 cents a 100 weight more than u and when I say conventional I really mean a large rotary. Um it can be as high as $2, you know, depending on how efficiently you're running your robot system. So, you know, that to me is the the critical question for the longevity of the box style systems in the marketplace is can they get the cost of production competitive with you know these large rotary operations


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and right now it's not quite there yet. I think over the years of course the questions kind of changed Caitlin but one question I've been getting a lot recently I think and not just from farmers but also consultants is how much feed can I feed you know how much feed do I need to provide in the robot can I go without feed and as we know some farmers are doing that now on guided flow farms they are able to train their animals to come through uh without providing uh much at all or nothing few


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farms are doing that in the robot. So that works okay for a guided flow farm, not for a free flow traffic farm. I don't know if people are familiar with the difference to free flow traffic cows can access any area of the barn at any time. Know can go to the robot, can go to feed bunk, can go to the beds versus a guided flow, we have pre selection gates that will select the animals uh that need to be milked into a commitment pen and then the other animals that do not have to be milked yet, they go


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directly to the feed buck. So in that case, we're already pre-selecting the animals to go into the robot. So it makes it possible to feed less feed in in the robot. So I've noticed over the years, like I said, we've been doing research for the last 15 years with robots or so. Uh we've noticed a decrease in the amount of feed that's offered uh even um you know both I would say primarily in the guided flow, but even the free flow and the amounts are probably half what they used to be for


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the guided flow or less. Um and then also on the free flow side, we've seen a few more farmers doing um more than one feed. In the beginning, we had just one feed. Everybody fed one feed. Um but in recent surveys, we found that about u 30 plus% of the farms uh were feeding more than one feed. So you can have a cheaper feed that for all your cows and a more expensive feed for your high producing cows or your fresh cows, things like that. So it's been an evolution in terms of what we feed in the robot. And we


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also learned very clearly that we need to focus on that partial mix ration and make it that really good and have very good forage quality. So cows come to the feed bunk to eat and then they go at the robot. So the questions about feeding I get quite often too I think maybe a little bit with my background in nutrition. So anyway as an example there's all kinds of questions out there but that's an example. I think from my standpoint like the most common question yes one is cost the other one is fee they are the most


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common ones and then another question is where do we put these robots inside the building and unfortunately we don't have a formula I don't think we have figured it out yet we have developed some suggestions recommendations but it really depends just like anything else in life right the answer is it depends so if it's a brand farm barn I mean building then there are more options if it's a retrofitted building then our options are kind of limited we put them where we can put them and then what are the measures we


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need to take to make it work then we dive into into those questions >> perfect and I think all three of you kind of gave a good intro to further questions that we had people bring in including cost and feed and design Um, I think one of them that I want to start with is a little bit more general, but it is related to cost. Um, we kind of hear farmers bring up afterwards, oh, I didn't know this was going to cost something or there was this hidden cost I didn't know about. Um, when we're


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thinking about robots, in your experience, what are some of those costs or considerations that people don't always think about when they're putting in robots or when they're, you know, doing their budgets for the year when it comes to their robots? >> Well, there's very high initial cost, right, Caitlyn, of the robots. What we don't think about is all the cost of repairs and maintenance and everything that goes with it. So, you talk with the, you know, sometimes the companies


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might tell it's 10,000 per robot per year, but in reality, it might be 20,000, right? So, we need to be prepared for the cost of keeping them working properly because if you don't put that effort and and the cost that that takes to make it happen, we're not going to you're not going to have robots anymore because they do require a lot of maintenance. And and again, there's a cost and like Doug said, cost of robots is not just the initial, but it's the genius cost and and that it takes to do


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it. >> Yeah. And just to to follow on on that, um, uh, you know, there's a sort of question, does it reduce labor? And you can ask that question a lot of different ways. Is there more people? Are there fewer people? But very clearly, you have a different kind of labor when you're working with robots. So, you know, I hear this concern about the maintenance costs being higher. Well, it it it it's a more complex machine uh than a conventional looking machine. So, it is going to cost more to maintain


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it, right? And so, one of the ways of looking at that is uh you know, I can pay someone to put uh you know, to attach milking units all day long or I can pay someone to maintain my robot. And so, there's these kind of tradeoffs. And so, you have different kind of jobs. you don't have, you know, 12 people that are, you know, you're having to schedule and, you know, have repetitive stress injury from, you know, work the process of, uh, attaching milking units, but there are other kinds of labor. So, I


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think I think there's a kind of a a false economy when people look at, for example, the maintenance bill, they say, "Oh my god, it's much more expensive." Well, it is more expensive to maintain and you're paying less for other kinds of labor. So one of the ways I like to look at it is uh when you're putting in robots you're you're creating different kinds of jobs. So you have to look at the kinds of jobs you're creating and you know is that you know sort of dairy


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farm ecosystem in terms of the jobs and the quality of life and the lifestyle you know is that more preferable um you know that's that's one of the considerations and and I think to have a a more holistic view of the costs you know not just to focus on maintenance because you know that that tends to get people very agitated if their maintenance bill goes up. But, you know, it's a trade-off. There's and there's people on the farm you can train to to do some of that maintenance work and you


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know, you don't So, I think that's one of the Yeah. one of the I would say sort of misconceptions is that um there is a restructuring of the dairy that takes place when you go to robots and in terms of the types of jobs, the whole cost structure and then the whole management philosophy is different. Yeah, I agree with you, Doug. But you still need to be prepared to the fact that it's going to cost a little bit more than you thought initially for these things. At least that's what the farmers tell me. So, I


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talked to every single farmer and they say they told me it's going to cost me X. In reality, it's calling cost me a lot more. It's not saying that they're complaining about this, but you need to be prepared because this is a question of economics and being prepared for it and having that available to do so. And I absolutely agree that you train people and most of the best farms I work with 80% 85% more or more is repairs and all that's done by them you know by themselves by the employees by


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themselves to save money of course but you still need to have that person or the technician from the the supplier from the company to be around to train the people and also to be able to take care of major problems that might be happening. Um, and if you go into groups and you see how much people are asking about how do I fix this, how do I fix that? Um, I for me like I'm not very handy. So I would be a little bit scared but you know getting the right person like you said and train that person you


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can fix these things. Yes, absolutely. So it kind of replacing different and most of the farms recent survey we did with large dairies across the US I did with UC Davis most of the farms are trained their own people the same people they didn't have to hire new people they train their own people they had on the farm to work with robots right so it's possible to train them if they're handy and have them fix the robots so I completely agree with that so it's a nice way of looking at that that it's


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just like you're replacing the the cost right you're replacing so don't get too scared but be ready to have that money available for the parts and things you need. >> Marcy, I actually have a followup on that. Um, you mentioned like a lot of farmers it it ends up costing more than maybe what they were told up front. Do you know of maybe a good resource or an idea of what a farmer could expect for a maintenance cost or how they could maybe estimate what that's going to look like?


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>> Most of farmers I work with are telling me around that 20,000 15 to 25 let's say,000 per robot per year is the cost that they give. And this is that number they give me. That's what they calculated uh as they start keeping track of it. Of course, that's going to vary a lot uh related to the age of the robots. Of course, they get older, they have more expensive parts, our warranty. So, those kind of things also make a difference, right? So, it's hard to come up with just an absolute


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number, I think. But that's what the farmers tell me. I didn't collect that directly, but that's conversations with farmers. >> Right. Nestle, I think your research is so interesting when it comes to ventilation because it always seems to kind of be something that we think about a little bit about robots, but we're just concerned about getting the robots in and then ventilation comes later. Um, is there, you know, do you see a lot of farms afterwards needing to spend that money


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to fix ventilation that maybe could have been switched up at the beginning? Um, or what just some insights there would be really interesting. >> Yes. So one cost is like retrofitting those older facilities right if you're going to put those oneway gates if it is our decision then you know being able to put them and having a barn layout that will work for us it costs right and then as soon as these robots come in we will need more ventilation fans since they are kind of restriction to air flow


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right and then okay we will add more ventilation fans and then we need to Think about that electricity consumption like it's not the initial like we know the initial fan price right so we can just calculate that one that part is easy but once we put them then the electricity consumption how much it will increase our bill even we may need a new circuit system so it it may be a very significant cost actually if electricity consumption goes up very significantly and then having a new system to be able


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to run those fans it it may make a huge difference. So please keep in mind electricity consumption will go up and then you have the enough infrastructure to support it. So if not then it needs to be added to the budget. >> Makes sense. um kind of continuing on this cost conversation. Obviously, to all of our attendees, if you have questions, please feel free to throw them in the chat or in the Q&A, but for now, we'll just continue with this cost conversation. Um we had mentioned it or


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teased it a little bit earlier of that when you're considering maybe AMS versus upgrading your parlor, putting in a rotary. And Doug, you said you kind of look at that cost per milk production. Is there, you know, some general numbers that you look at that kind of help you when you're thinking about what should I look at look at if you're I'm considering doing that. Do you have any suggestions for farmers on numbers that would be good for them to look at? >> Well, you know, I think with with any


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kind of major investment like this, you really have to do a good cash flow analysis. I mean, it's it's a it's a very broad question. It's a very complex question. >> Yes. And so the equity structure of the farm and you know it's it makes a big difference and and um you know I I I have not actually seen good economic analysis done uh at least published and and I think uh you know I don't know there's you know financial consulting organizations like you know compier and


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so forth. I don't know how they approach it but uh you know you certainly need to to do a really you know really in-depth uh financial analysis to figure out if you have uh the capacity to uh to support the the capital expenses that that are involved because they are considerable, right? So, you know, the the capital cost per cow is can be double what it is for a conventional system. And so, you know, to to uh carry that capital investment, you need to have sufficient cash flow. And uh like I


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said, I just haven't seen good a good financial analysis that's actually been published. I think probably people are doing them, but for some reason, we're not seeing them in the literature. you know, I'm I'm sort of basing my these sort of back of the envelope numbers on discussions with farms that have both systems, you know, and that's where that 50 cents to $200 weight difference comes from. Uh farms that have, you know, have both systems and are doing sort of a careful analysis. And and I'll just say,


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you know, on this feeding question, um, one of the selling points of robots early on and still is that you can uh essentially precision feeding can somehow improve uh prove something, right? So what what does precision feeding do for us? Well, you know, it might get us more pounds per cow and uh but really when it comes down to it, uh the economic advantage of precision feeding really has not materialized. So, I don't think you can count precision feeding as a a net positive economic uh factor for robotic milking. And right


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now, I think it's negative. It costs more in terms of dollars per hundred weight of feed cost if you're doing precision feeding. And you know, there's all kind of reasons for that, but you know, the primary one in my mind is the cows just don't have enough time in the robot to eat enough feed to balance the ration, right? The high producers, you you know, you'd want to feed more concentrate in the robot to kind of balance the ration. There just isn't time because there's the time pressure


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to get the cow milked, get the cow in, get the cow out, and there just isn't time to do a really uh, you know, the the type of precision feeding that might be beneficial economically. >> Marcia, I'd love to hear your take on that precision feeding with your nutrition background. >> Right. So, basically, that's I think the reason we evolved into focusing a lot more on the PMR, which is a partial mix ration, right? So that partial mix ration is what's meeting most of the


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nutrients nutrient requirements for those cows even the high producing cows. So it's becoming a little more similar especially in guided flow farms that TMR that PMR is almost like a TMR is really uh very similar and uh in the robot they might be feeding a little bit of corn gluten pellets or something like this just to entice the animal to enter uh the box but the the farm is managed basically like a conventional farm in terms of feeding in those cases and even the free flow farms are using a little


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bit less um feed and the robot than they used to in the beginning uh when we start using robots 10, 15, 20 years ago um with with no difference in production. So that cost of feeding went down. So that cost of feeding is not as maybe as high as you might think. And and and we do see some benefits. We did a project recently where we fed a different supplement uh for uh the first 30 days in milk was a actually project. So we had animals in the same pen fed the supplement or not fed the supplement


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because we're doing like a controlled study. And we did see seven pounds more milk for those animals that were fed this particular supplement which was much better. The cost benefit was about 3 to one. So basically cows did produce a lot more milk by feeding this third feed. Uh this farm was already feeding two feeds on the dair on that dairy. So they had a feed that's a general feed palleted feed and then they were feeding energy supplement to just the high producing cows up to it past peak and


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then they would stop. And then we added this third one. And I was surprised how much response we got. To be honest, I didn't expect to get that kind of response from the uh older cows. And of course, the nutritionist that was involved in this study, he's using this in every single robotic there he can do that has the ability to feed more than one feed um because they saw a benefit to it. So, it's kind of there's no like um broad strike thing that you can say it's not going to work or it's going to


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work. I think it's a case by case situation where in some farms you might see a benefit. Um but again that partial mix ration is what we need to really focus on too and then economically that makes a lot of sense to me um to get production. I have dairies uh with guided flow just using like kind of like like I said almost like a TMR producing over 15 pounds of energy corrected milk average. So yes you can get very good production and uh it's it's it's again each farm is a bit different. So you


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need to work with your nutritionist. You need to think about what works for your dairy. And again on the free flow, we do have to feed in the robot. There's no way not to feed in the robot. You have to, but you don't have to feed it maybe as much as we thought initially. So that saves money and also reduces your risk of subclinical ruminino acidosis because I think we're doing a lot of that in the beginning by like cows eating too much concentrate in there and reducing pH and fat percent was low. Now fat percentages


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have gone up. If you look at the fat percentage in robots is more a little more normal now compared to conventional. So I think we've we're learning Caitlyn takes time. We're not quite maybe at the at the end of how to best feed them but we we're a lot better and we cows are healthier and they are even more productive to production per robot has gone up instead of down over the years. >> So yeah it's it's a learning process. We're getting there. Yeah, you perfectly


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transitioned into another question that we had which was related to that kind of acidosis um ketosis in fresh cows. Um the question is is that a real thing? Uh people have talked about that you know in robots when you're feeding you get higher rates of acidosis or ketosis in fresh cows. Um are you seeing that that's that is really actually happening? Um and if so what what strategies can a farm do to avoid that? So, not as much anymore. Based on what just said, we changed the way we feed


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them. Um, the project that I mentioned to you earlier, we actually were measuring beta hydroxyb rate on the cows. We saw no ketosis whatsoever. It was really low. Uh, cows were doing quite well producing at the time, I think was 95 or 98 pounds of milk. So, high producing herds, well-managed herds that are feeding correctly, we don't see as much of a problem. I think it's just like everything. And you also need to have very good transition cow program. So, focus on those pre- fresh cows. to


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make sure they're wellfed, uh they are very comfortable and they come in ready to go, if you will. So, focusing on that prehresh stage is also very key. Robots even more than conventional. So, they come in really good uh into the robotic system and they can, you know, perform well and eat well in the beginning and kind of get that going so they don't get ketosis like you're saying by not feeding too much concentrate, you don't have a lot of subclinical acidosis either. So, again, takes a little uh


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learning how to work around that, >> right? And you'd said I just want to like kind of get a little clarification. When you say feeding them well, does that mean providing them with a high quality PMR? Is that kind of the focus? >> Yes. So it's it's a combination. Focus on that PMR very high quality forage. Make sure that's attractive to the animals so they feel like getting up and going eat at the bunk because hunger is what moves them to the robot. It's not what's in the robot. It's not that they


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feel like, "Oh my god, I need to be milked because I have a lot of pressure in my other." No, they don't think that way. They're cows. Uh so they're hungry. they get up and then they're going to go through the robot and they're going to go to the feed bank. Uh both systems, free flow and guided flow, but especially guided flow, what brings them through the robot is being hungry and wanting to go to that feed bunk and eating that PMR. So that's important. And also your feed tables, that's a


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whole we can spend a whole hour talking about feed tables and how they feed animals and do you feed you know feed fixed amounts and then you move on to by know by production pounds etc. That whole feed table is an art and that makes a big difference how you set them up. So that's something that takes some effort. >> We could do a whole another webinar on feed. >> If somebody in the audience has a question about feed tables, please feel free to throw them in there and we'll answer them, but we don't want to bog


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down the whole webinar with feed tables questions. So >> Exactly. Exactly. um kind of moving away a little bit from the nutrition and maybe a little bit more focused on kind of a general question. Um I think all of you have mentioned that through the years we have seen differences in how we either build robot barns or how we manage robot barns. Um what are some of the biggest changes that you've kind of seen that you think have been like really impactful? This has made a difference switching this up.


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The thinker I think one of the differences um they pay more attention for data use. So before those ear tags were kind of like part of the deal we collect this data okay we have the data right but they kind of didn't know or didn't have the time how to manage that data how to use that data but I what I see is nowadays they are paying more attention they are trying to make you know use use that data even that are like farmers they use those AI tools right there are different AI tools even they record the weather


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data and then enter all their information and share with each other whatever they collect using their ear tag. So, so they're trying to make use of that data more. This is what I see >> Marcia got anything to add otherwise? >> Well, there's so many changes that we've seen over the years and it's just like how to like this more her area but I mean how we better design these barns. We need to really improve the cow flow. So how you make it easy? Think of think like a cow. So make it easy for her to


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figure out how do I get to this robot and how I move around the barn. One thing for example in guided full farm is the toll booth system. I know I had farmers that just swear by it. Like I didn't have this before. Now it's so much easier. Cows go through get out. They don't get mixed as they get out and it's just intuitive. They go in and they can actually figure it out very easily and be trained very easily. Right. So the whole design of the barns I think we learned a lot about and there's more to


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learn like as you was saying there's different ways of doing it but I think that was something I've seen improvement on quite a bit um and also we already discussed feeding we already discussed um maybe the importance of the the PMR and one thing when the first one of earlier studies we did we looked at farms that had a automatic feed push-up like the robots the feed push-up robots and we saw 11 pounds more milk on farms that had them compared to farms that did not have them. And at the time about


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only 30% of the farms had them. Most recent studies we did, 72% of the farms have them now. So we didn't see much of a difference, but again having that made a big difference because cows need access to feed at all times in a robot barn, right? So something that I really think is important not only for robot barns. I wish every farm had one of those. not trying to sell robot push feeders feed pushers but the robot feed pushers really allow you to have that access and that really important for


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cows for productivity right because we say yeah I push feed you know x number of times a day but you know not quite not quite enough I think so yeah I've seen a lot more use of that too other technologies that go along with robots if you will >> well and I have to say that the and this is kind of a a rather recent thing and So it remains to be seen how it's going to work out but uh Marcia mentioned earlier that uh several farms have removed all feeding from the robot and and another sort of adaptation of that


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is batchming systems where you know you have a it looks more like a conventional parlor where you have a holding area you bring a group in and those batch milking systems typically don't feed u so so both of those options are way of reducing the cost of the robot the the capital cost of the robot you know the feeding system adds considerable expense and um so uh you know it's uh again I haven't seen a good economic analysis of it but I think it's a it's a strategy that can improve the economics and um you know


00:32:56
again as Marcia said we've got TMR herds that are doing 115 pounds a day so you know we We know how to feed cows with TMR and get high production. I mean, we've been working on that for a hundred years, right? That's a very fine-tuned system. And so, um, yeah, I think that whole question of of feeding is an interesting one, you know, whether or not, you know, we used to feed in conventional parlors, still do in some grazing herds, right? And and but but that's kind of really gone away because, you know, you're kind


00:33:28
of there to milk the cows. you're not, you know, you're trying to combine two things, feeding and milking, and there's certain friction points there. So, I I think it'll be interesting to see how this uh u you know, whether or not just eliminating the feed in the robot will be a positive step. I I don't know. I I don't know. We'll see. I'm not willing to pron to place a bet on that one. >> That makes sense. Yeah, it is kind of in the stages of we are finding out. We are


00:34:00
still looking at it, seeing how it's going to work, but it's definitely an interesting um step that we're moving in. Um >> only for guided flow, however, just a disclaimer here. Do not think of doing this for free flow because free flow, we do need to have something in the robot to get the cows in there. >> Yeah. >> So, please do not if you have free flow farm, we're talking about guided flow here. Please. >> Well, and the and the batched milking systems are the ultimate guided flow,


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right? So, you know, you bring the cow to the holding area. That's really extreme guided flow if you want to think about it that way. >> Right. What would you think of cost of that? G look at cost of that. It's just like you need so many of those boxes. >> Well, >> I sold on it. I'm not sold on it yet. I think just one of these farms in the US is like >> Yeah, I think it, you know, um it has the potential to have uh better box use efficiency, >> right? So, that just in itself. So


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there's two things about it that might give it might give it an economic advantage. >> Okay, >> reduced you know cost per machine because of not feeding there. There might be other cost reductions by going through to a batch system. Uh, and then also the um the um uh just the you know the the number of hours per day that the box is actually milking a cow potentially is is is higher because you've got a more controlled traffic going on in that it's it scenario but you know we've only got


00:35:27
a few farms that have been brave enough to try it and I it's still very early to hard to tell see how they go. >> Good point. Yep. Marcy, you kind of introed this with you keep intros introing my questions very well. Um with pusher um we we had a question that was I think this farmer is probably in the stages of maybe thinking about implementing robots and the question is are there other technologies that are smart to implement with robots? So like you mentioned the feed pusher um are there other technologies that seem


00:36:01
to make sense with robots? >> Yeah, a lot of farms will have automatic scrapers, right? So you're trying to disrupt as minimum as possible going in the pen in the serving the cows. So a lot of those farms even though I have a love and hate relationship with scrapers and my colleague here always calls them the tsunami of manure as it kind of brings that manure out of the barn. So I don't love that part of it but again it's less disruption right. We do have some uh company at least one company I


00:36:28
work with that offer a basically a vacuum cleaner of sorts which is a robot um vacuum that gets rid of manure but again there's a whole additional cost to that and also maintenance of this particular piece of equipment so I don't see a lot of those but there's some farms that have that uh as an option so again that's maybe something I see a lot of cow brushes so cow brushes are not something that has been proven that improves productivity but it definitely improves cow comfort and cows enjoy it.


00:36:56
So a lot of these robotic farms will have brushes, cow brushes. That's very typical. Another technology I see some farms have is having a feeder in the dry pan. So it's automatic feeder that cows go into a box to uh eat. So that it's very useful to train heers to train uh animals to be be unafraid of going into a box to to you know to to eat a little bit. So that works especially if you're going to have a free flow system where then cows will have to go into a box and then they know there's a little feed in


00:37:26
there so they'll entice them. So that is a nice training tool. I've seen some farms implementing. So those are some technologies that I commonly see. And of course as in the ventilation side of things, those smart fans, I really like them. I have a farm that has those smart fans which cools different areas of the barn appropriately based on temperature, humidity. So again, everything adds up. So all of a sudden, like Doug said, forget it. It's going to be way too expensive. But if you have those, you're


00:37:51
going to have very good cow comfort. So again, it's there's different options out there. >> Yeah, the dream farm sometimes includes things that are not in our budget, but it is the dream farm. Um, kind of switching a little bit to design. Um, when we are designing robot barns, are there maybe some key features that get overlooked a little bit? Um, I think a common one that maybe comes to mind is where is that foot bath going to be located? Um, are there other things that come to mind that maybe get overlooked


00:38:26
when it comes to design? >> So, one of the things that sometimes we overlook is not having an air inlet for ventilation fence. So, having supply fence is good. So, we recently published a study. Supply fence are good. I cannot say they're not good but they have very limited benefit especially if you're thinking about that the airflow at the cal level their benefit is very limited. So instead of having those supply fans it's not like the more the better let's have many many fans let's put many fans


00:39:00
in this barn and then make it work. It's not how it works, right? So having a big opening air inlet, right? And then getting help from mother nature a little bit assuming that wind blows from west or southwest or northwest in winter. Having that help a little bit and then having that natural air flow coming in, it helps a lot. So if you have the supply fans, then you need to match the exhaust fence capacity with the supply fence capacity. As the fence get older and dirtier, it stops matching and then


00:39:35
you're not taking the advantage of those windy days. You're just running those supply fence continuously. Then the, you know, ventilation efficiency goes down significantly. This is what we figured out in our res study. Mhm. >> Sierra Doug, do you have any uh design features that maybe you would urge farmers make sure you remember these? >> Yeah, I agree with her. Ventilation is a key one, right? So, it's good to be doing my research on that nicely. Thank you to figure it out was the best thing


00:40:10
in economics of it. And also the placement you mentioned earlier already the placement of the robot where it goes, you know, the distance cows have to walk. So that's something we also learn about the design. Is it Lshape? Is it too option or whatever? And there's different ways of doing it. So I'm not saying there's just one way, but uh those are things still kind of um I don't know if we know the best option yet. We've been changing over the years. And also one thing that's very important


00:40:35
I think is to have sword pens. So new new uh builds, we can have a sword pan. So those are cows that get selected out of the robot to be doing something with them. And what producers tell me over and over and over is that I should have them make them bigger. I should have more space here. I should have had more. Uh so I think that's one thing they learned. Make them big enough. Um so that we can especially as theirs get larger. You need to have enough of those bands and make them make make sure that


00:41:02
is enough stalls, enough, you know, eating spaces and all that. So that's one thing I hear over and over. >> Do those farms ever tell you if they were to build them bigger how big they would want? like >> they would double. A lot of times they tell me I would have double. Instead of, you know, 20 stalls, I would have 40. If instead of a 10, I would have 20 or whatever. Usually they tell me I probably would have double them number of stalls. >> Mhm. >> Because they use that a lot for


00:41:24
management, >> you know, even to train their heers. So you put them in there in the beginning so they can actually still access the robot, but you have them in a smaller space so you can train them for four years, whatever before they go into the general population. Uh, so that really helps with labor. So again, back to labor efficiency, right? So that really helps how you approach uh the training. For example, having a space for them with the sort pens for example. >> Those sort pens can be really helpful.


00:41:51
Yes. >> Yeah. >> Um Marcia mentioned it. Nestle mentioned it as well. Placement of robots, especially when it comes to ventilation. Nestle, I read your recent article. Very interesting what came out of that. Um could you kind of share maybe what you've learned in that article or just in your other work as well when it comes to that placement and ventilation is is there a best placement or any ideas on that? >> Yes, there is a best placement but it doesn't work for all farms right it


00:42:22
really is. So if we have a tunnel so in that study what we did we compared a tunnel ventilated building to a cross ventilated building and in a tunnel ventilated building there isn't a lot of options right in that building in that specific design they put the robots in front of the air inlet actually in front of the supply fence where the air was coming in and then they added a lot of circulation fans with the hope that that improves the situation. Circulation fence help but since the robots were


00:42:55
kind of placed perpendicular to the airflow they block. So our simulations like this is simulation right what we can do is we can do any kind of academic exercise what we did we remove the robots and then look at the temperature distribution. We put back the robots and then look at the temperature distribution and they do affect the temperature distribution. So temperature increases since they are blocking the air flow there. The other barn was a cross ventilated barn, but in a cross ventilated barn there's a little bit


00:43:28
more space, right? Maybe it's not a fair comparison, but it was a cross ventilated barn. So they put those robots by the wall, so on the side. So they are kind of parallel to the airflow, but they are not in front of the air inlet. So even if we remove the robots or put them back, temperature distribution didn't change. Yes, there is a formula but it doesn't apply to all the buildings, right? If it's a tunnel ventilated building, it's a long rectangle building, then there is


00:43:59
nothing else we can do. But like whatever we put inside a building, if we are singing from ventilation standpoint, please make sure it's parallel to the airflow. It doesn't have to be a robot. Whatever we are, even we are putting a hay bale, it needs to be parallel to the airflow so it doesn't block the airflow. So >> based on what you just said, Nesley, you're suggesting maybe that cross vent would be more appropriate or preferable if you will for robot barns. >> I'm a little bit afraid to say that in


00:44:31
real world, we would want cross ventilation, but I do understand it doesn't work like that all the time, >> right? But if you could build new, that would be a recommendation maybe. That's what I'm asking. Okay. >> In general, cross ventilation works better than >> Yeah, I see more of those than I see tunnel actually, at least here in the Midwest. So, which is good. So, they're doing it right hopefully by doing cross vent. >> So, sorry. Go ahead, Doug. Well, I I


00:44:58
would say one of the intriguing questions to me has to do with group size and you know pen size, number of AMS per pen and you know it has grown as experience with AMS has grown more cows more AMS per pen and um I I think it's a an interesting question I you know there are certain advantages in smaller group size because you can formulate groups that you know for manage management groups that you can do more precision management on the other hand the the farms typically like to have large group size and I'm you know


00:45:42
people talking about you know four five AMS per pen with you know 300 400 cows and it's like I you know I think there's an upper limit and and one of the real problems you get into when you get a lot of EMS per pen is the traffic flow. So, you know, it's really hard to get cows in to a whole bunch of robots and get them back out without crossing each other and it's a very difficult geometric uh you know configuration to make the cow traffic work when you get multiple AMS per pen. So, you know, I


00:46:23
think uh I think there's clear advantages like two AMS per pen is seems to work fine. Three, I don't know, you know, I you know, I don't know if there's a where the advantage point is, but I think the other the other thing if you think about creating pens, um there's also certain advantages from a management perspective on having different size pens. So, you know, I think there's a a point of having one pen with one AMS. It's going to be a smaller group, right? You got another


00:46:55
pen with two MS and you might have another, you know, pens with three or four. And uh so I think that that makes sense from a management perspective. I don't see people doing it that much. Usually when you go to a barn, they're all the same. The pen size are all the same and the number of AMS per pen are all the same. But I think um you know there's reason to think about different size pens and then when you get into these bigger pen sizes is is there really you know what's the real


00:47:24
advantage in that because there's a clear disadvantage at this point in terms of cow traffic when you have you know three four uh AMS per pen >> and that kind of led into a question that was asked flip it a little bit. So, you're talking about AMS per pen. Um, I think I I hear more grumblings about how how overstocked do we do this pen in terms of cows per laying stall? Um, is there any idea? I mean, it's kind of a new concept, people really overstocking these stalls. So, do we know anything


00:48:01
yet about how it affects efficiency or performance? I I've been amazed at some of the extreme overstocking situations that work extremely well. I I mean I'm I'm really surprised. I would never have recommended overstocking like you know 50 60% but there are farms that are doing it and and it seems to be working well for them. So I think it's another one of those big questions. I think you know it requires a higher level of management intensity in order to be able to do that. So, I wouldn't recommend it


00:48:34
for everyone, but but clearly there there are farms that are that are overstocking the stalls by considerable amount. And it and it makes sense because, you know, in a in a robot barn with voluntary cow traffic, a certain percentage of the cows are always up, right? And you kind of want a certain percentage of the cows up all the time. So, it it kind of facilitates cow traffic in a way. Uh but but I think it takes really careful you got to really monitor those systems carefully and and uh it there you know there are some


00:49:11
potential uh problems with it but >> yeah I agree with Doug still surprising right Doug I have a farmer that's following for me he has the sensors and he's looking at lameness and he's looking at everything and I was like how is it so far a year and a half later whatever still good I was like gh and they put an extra robot so they actually have an extra robot they buy an older the robot, they put them on the robot so they have more robots. So the robots only instead of 60 70 cows, it's like 50


00:49:36
or less. So there's enough space, enough time for cows to be milked. >> But I always as as I'm cow comfort is my other area of specialty, I got nervous about what is the long-term implications of these animals not having space, enough space to lie down, enough space to eat. I I don't know. I got nervous, Doug. I'm not sure, but you're right. They're making it work somehow. The best managers. Yes. Things that Wisconsin likes to invent. This is one invented by one of your dealers over there, which is


00:50:01
interesting. >> Well, that's, you know, that's one thing I've learned through the years. There's lots of very very clever people out there and, you know, all kinds of things. You know, dairy producers and and their consultants and the equipment people. I mean, it's it's a constant innovation. >> It is. Uh, you know, you got to give credit to people who are willing to take a risk and try something and and um, you know, that's kind of the the ultimate acid test of whether or not it's going


00:50:31
to work and >> Right. Right. Wisconsin. >> Yes. Even like the did in Wisconsin that has, you know, the angled toll booth, but I came from Wisconsin too and seems to be working well for those farms. So, yeah, innovation, I guess. Yep. They need to keep an eye on these things, right? There's not a lot of research, unfortunately. It's really hard to do research on this, but um we just observations. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's why being an extension specialist is the greatest job in the


00:50:56
world because >> you never have to sit around and think about a research question. All you have to do is walk out the door and go onto a farm. It's like, wow. >> I know. >> Wow. Look at all that's going on out here. And you know, there's just questions sort of pouring out. So, it's been >> Yes. >> fascinating ride in that respect. >> Yep. People don't just learn from us, we learn a ton from other people. >> Yes, we do. And especially from the


00:51:22
farmers, it's amazing what they come up with. >> Yes. Okay. As we get towards the end here, I'm going to have kind of a closing question for you all to answer and it's focused on that really high achieving robot herds that you have visited, talked to, learned from. What is one thing that you see those herds are doing that you think is really helping them be that really successful herd um that other farms could you know implement that on their farm to help them out? >> I can go first. So commitment to


00:51:59
management since as Doug explained at the very beginning. So the initial idea is this robots will reduce the labor needs right but by time we learn that labor needs change and it's kind of we have to adapt that once the commitment to management from my standpoint from my research standpoint good ventilation design I will say those two kind of impossible one thing but I agree with her the management uh transition cow programs are really good. um focusing forage quality and good quality forage um and the whole feeding um how


00:52:43
you manage that and the combination of feeding table the feed tables milk mission settings has to be really done right there's just one it's not it's hard to say Caitlyn one thing because it's really a very interdependent system and you need to do everything right and you need to do even better than a conventional system because a lot of parts going on here so focus on management but management everything out the cows prefresh, post fresh, training, feeding. I mean, it's a lot of things.


00:53:10
Caitlyn cannot narrow down to one thing. If you just do one thing, you're not going to be successful. You have to do a lot of things right when it comes to the holistic approach. So, farmers that have a very holistic approach and look at all the different aspects of this are the ones that are successful. It's been my experience. >> Well, I'm I'm just reflecting on way back in in ancient uh times when we were monitoring My lab did a we monitored all the robot farms in the US for a period of three


00:53:42
years. So we'd watch them, you know, before robots, after robots, looking at all sorts of things, right? And and one of the things that popped out of that study is that like for example, um milk predict milk production, you know, per cow didn't change much. Uh sematic cell count didn't change much. So farms that were good at producing milk before robots were really good at producing milk after robots and farms that were good at mastitis management and animal health care before robots


00:54:18
were still really good at that after robots. So I think you know uh to kind of underscore what Marsha and Nestle said is you know this is a technology because of the uh the capital cost and the economic risk associated with that. It's really it's a technology for superior management. You have to already understand how to get milk out of cows and how to keep cows healthy and how to you know keep cows uh your repro system. So I think uh and just from a you know from my lens from a milking management


00:54:55
standpoint high producing cows with no mastitis are a lot easier to milk. It's just a lot easier to manage a herd of really high producing cows and low you know mastitis rates. So, you know, it just makes uh you know, it's just really the fundamentals. I guess you you got to you got to understand cows, you got to understand nutrition, you got to understand animal health, you got to understand all that. >> It's not for everyone. You have to be that really good manager. Good point,


00:55:28
though. Yes. >> And it it perpetually amazes me to be a successful dairy operator how many things you have to be good at. >> Exactly. I think that really makes that job unique, right? I'm I'm a little professor here and it's like I'm good at one thing, but a dairy farmer like has to be good at 20 things. >> It's really huge system. Yep. >> Yeah. >> Very, very complex. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a lot of things we've learned today. I think just in general,


00:55:58
we know there's a lot of things that go into managing AMS. Um, and a question that came in that I can answer real quick right now is where do I go for more information about managing AMS? Well, the great thing is extension. Both us and University of Minnesota has some great extension resources as well about managing AMS herds and starting at those basics and what does that look like. So, if you're looking for some more information, you can go ahead and check out those websites. I would love to thank our panelists that


00:56:30
we had today. It was a great conversation. Um, I appreciate you guys taking the time out of your day to join us and I will quickly give a um, preview of what our webinar for next month will be. So, if you enjoyed this conversation, we have another panel that will be happening next month. The date will be November 18th and the title is Hey there, let's talk feed centers and inventory. So myself and my colleague Jackie McCarville will be introducing a inventory spreadsheet tool that people can access on our website. But then


00:57:06
we'll also have a panel joining us of Grant Ginstead of Verclair Farms, Jake Pyig of JTP Farms, and Ryan Schultz of the Pagel Family Businesses. And they're going to be sharing in how they have designed and fine-tuned their feed centers for efficiency and performance. So if you'd like to attend that, we encourage you to join us. You can register on our website if you haven't already, the link is the center link here on the screen and then if you are looking for more information such as


00:57:36
those AMS resources, you can find those on our dairy website which is this first link as well. You can check us out on Facebook and this webinar will be recorded and posted on our website in about a week or two. And with that, I'm going to close our panel for today. We appreciate all of our attendees and our panelists. It was a great time. Thank you everybody. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having us. All right. Bye bye.